itil mists ii.r.1itii f in its i
within si.. any fiiiiifiti t“‘c.7iiii.l§i€
MR. JAMES l\IcISAAC, (Kings, P.
E_ L); Mr. Speaker, I desire to say
n few words on this question which is
of Paramount importance to the peo-
ple oi' Canada, which is indeed one of
the most important matters that have
come up for discussion in this Parlia-
ment for some time. The debate has
taken a very wide range and many
things have been said. Some things
have been said that have had some
bearing on the question under review,
und quite a number of things have
been said that seem to have very lit-
tle connection therewith. I will en-
deavor, in my brief remarks, to con-
iinemysell as nearly as may be to
the subject matter oi"the Bill before
the House. I believe that I shall be
able to understand the subject better
myself and to present my. thnughts
better regarding the question if, -with
your permission, Sir, I 'briefly review
the history of this railway matter and
inquire what are the steps and what
are the different changes which have
brought about the conditions in which
the Grand Trunk Railway Company
now ilnds itself. It is proper too that
we should inquire why this legisla-
tion ls, before us; why this company
comes to this Parliament seeking sid.
and why the Government of Canada
are now, negotiating with the Grand
Trunk Railway Company and are pug.
ting this legislation through Parlia-
ment in order to meet. the request
that has been made \in this connec-
ilon.
At the risk of repeating words that
have been said probably more than
once in this debate, I shall endeavor
to give the House it resume of the
history ol' this question. The original
intention of the Grand Trunk Railway
Company evidentlyrwas to build it
western line connecting at Winnipeg
and extending through the western
provinces in order to compete forthe
increasing trade in that section ot'
C9-Ilailil. a trade that was looked after
very successfully by the Canadian Pa-
citlc Railway Company. It seemed
quite reasonable that the company
should desire to extend their lines in
secure as .large it proportion ot' trade
its possible in the western provinces.
But for some reason or other when
they approached the Government in
1903 to obtain their charter they were
persuaded to consider n. more compre-
hensive scheme than they ut first en-
lcrlitlned, and instead oi' simply bulld~
ing at brimch-westward to the Pacific
Coast from ,Winnipeg they conceived'
the idea ol’ building eastward as well,
from Winnipeg to Quebec and Monc-
ton. thus _oomxnittlng themselves 'to
the construction oi' a transcontinental
llnc. When this matter was present-
ei_l lo Parliament by the then leader
ot line-Government, Sir Wilfrid Litur-
lur, that gentleman ccrtulnly pnintetl
it most ruselttc picture of the wonder-
iul-things that were to 'come about as
it result ol' tliis.ne\v undertaking, and
thc enormous benefit it was to prove
to Canada. It wus to cost Cltnudu. vcry
little to' complete :mother railway
from ocean to ocean. in the debates
ol’ that time’ the' Prime Minister on
the first reading of the Bill on the
.l0th July 1903 is thus recorded in
llausard:
The sunt total of money-to be paid by
thu Government for thc construction of
that llnc of railway from Moricton to
the Pacific Ocean will bc in the neigli-
bnrliootl of $12,000,000 or $l3,000,0fl0
and not it cont more.
Further on he says:
.
Thi: surplus oi’ this yoai' \vlll pay for
tht- construction of this line.
On tile same date at page 7695 of
Hansard he made use oi' these words:
E
’i‘hc cnsli subsidy which ls promised
und \\‘liicl\ is to bc given undcr this
contract to thc Grand Trunk Pacific
Company will not cxcccd $13,000,000 or
il\crv:ubout.
'Phat certainly looked' exceedingly
l"`°m|Hil1E. Canada wus to have a
Wmvleto transcontlnental line from
const to coast for practically nothing,
but this entranclng picture proved to
be 110'- iluite in accordance with the
facts. It was agreed that the road
should be built in two divisions, one
from Winnipeg to the Pacino const
and the other from Winnipeg to Monc-
ton. that portion of t.he line t'roni Win-
1'|lD0l: to Moncton to be known as the
National Transcontinental raiiwitycnd
the other portion. extending to the
Pacino Ocean, as the Grand Trunk Ba-.
ciilc railway. The Government were
to build the portion from Winnipeg
to Moncton. and the company the oth-
ei' section. The National 'Transcon-
tinental line. having been.bullt'by the
Government. was intended to»he op-
erated by the company after it l‘e\v
l'®t1l's. and ii nominal rent was to be
D810. To dispose oi` tiils briuicii of
lhe roiid which tloeanot enler,lnto the
question ro any great exten. at thc
‘“°lll€i'il., it is suiiloient to sat' that it
this coin' to thc
$100.
tom-
mrry out
agreement. They
road, the Govern-
to do so from the
be interesllm; to
r branch eatiindins
"lm the metric coast
fuedi it was a success.
“M the company
the Limi-
'.|74*W
was subsidized
was
Paci-
?| U9
IRI
. i
island the test of practical investiga-
tion. It was a. railway mirage and '
the Grand Trunk Railway Company
seem to have been lost in a maze of
rainlilcations which completely con-
fused and discomilted them. The
Grand Trunk Company were not long
ewaged in their construction work be-
fore they were compelled to come to!
the Government for assistance.
They continued seeking aid agaitll
and again, until, to use the words oi'
the ex-Finance Minister-and fam]
sure I can refer to no better authority .,
-theGovernm'ent_of Cauadaiwere un-
der obligation, .in connection with this
Grand -Trunk Pacific, to the extentol
$145,000,000 directly and indirectly. In
addition to that, the parent companys
the Grand Trunk railway. wereiunder.
obligation to the Grand Trunk‘ Pacino ,
is'the history in brist of the iinaneiifk'
is the history in brelf of-the financing
ot' this great road. We arenot ssylllt .
that it may not be great, but it hasf'
cost Canada a very large sum of mo-‘
ney. We are disappointed because it-
was emphasized when the road was
about to be built that it would make
practically no demand upon the iluan--`
ces of Canada beyond $18,000,000.
Then, reverting for a-moment to the
Canadian Northern, it; too; got into
inancial difficulties and-'was obliged wi
come t'rom year to year knocking at
the doors of Parliament in order to
secure financial aid to carry on its
business. There was poured out or
loaned from year to year millions and
millions ot' money, till at last the Gov-
ernment of our day decided that no
more money should be given to them
unless the road should belong to the.
Government. The time had come"
when no more risks shouldhe taken
by ioaning and giving millions of mo- i
uey to a corporation which did not
seem to have any near prospect of be-'
ing able to pay any portion of the‘
money bacv. The Government had
taken over or assumed $40,000,000 ol'
the stock ot? the road, while the pro-
prietors, or those responsible for the
company, had $60,000,000. In 1917 it
wi-is decided that no more money
should be given to the road unless it-
became the property ot the Govern-i
ment. Legislation to that effect was
introduced and passed in 1917. In
order that the Government might find
out wltatwas the reasonable value of
the property or of the $60,000,000 of .
stock that remained in the company,
ii. board ol' arbitrators was appointed. -
While on that I just wish to dwell for
ii. moment 'on somethin that took
legislation 'ot' 1917 on' this questtoh,
the Government had agreed, as I have
said, that they would appoint arbitra-I
tors to determine thc vitlue ol' the rc-
niaining stock. l find that the tlies
leader ot' thc Opposition. the la-tel
Right llonorublo Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
in discussing this question, placed
himself on record-, as will be found
in l-iansurtl, August 13, i917, to the
effect that he had no objection to ar-
bitrtlting, but he raised the point that
"Nu nsslstunccv should bc given to the
Cunudian Northern Railway unless at
the sumo time it is provlcled that tllc
tlnvcrninont hnvc power \vithin a reus-
onuhlc time to, ucquirc thc ownership
of tho entlrc stock of the company nt
o price to be fixed by ul'bltt'atlon,_not
to exceed' $30,000,000." '
What I wish -to establish is that the.
Opposition, through their leader, malls ;
the statement in» Parliament on the
13th August, 1917, that they would '
not object to the award of the arbitra-
tors provided it did not exceed $30.1
000,000. I wish to mention this be-
cause l may take occasion it little lst-
er in the course of my remarks to re- _
fer to tbls=particular part of~- the quee'
tion again. V ~ »<
In connsection with the leglslatlowof
1918, reference to which will be found
in Hansard or-May 15.- 1918. vase 1506-~
the right honxthe Prime Minister (Sir
Robert Borden), discussing the ques-
tion and alluding to the matter ofthe
-arrangement with the Canadian Nor-
thern, stated that: ~
Hy tl_ic arbitration agreement subse-
quently made it was provided that the
price should not exceed $10,000,000.
You will observe*-'that this is
third ot' the
the
their
the
willing to I-to
while here
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pay you 3 per cent. interest
or  fifteen years, $45..
F you take that in-ioney
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SEE OFFICIAL PROSPECTUS oN snort-iszra Psal-
'  _ 2". .. '$11-..__._ . _  .'  : -; .": * ~.;:.-M61#-‘Be
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of ier. because he said on that occasion , sv
Bl'
i tiilnk that the Grand 'iiruiut nan
way system should be productive i'
good results For the present I do not
condemn tht. idea ot' taking this rail
any over
The two competing railways in the mailer
Wsst-the Canadian Northern and the
(hand Trunk Paaiio. lnding it impos
s ble tg aueoessluliy continue opera
tions ad to succumb and the Gov
ernment Iwi no. option in tin matter
but hllpuke than nmlI|  
ways v absorbed
ligne 01 §i0 9008003 moltq intl #ll
order that they might be preserved ll!-
snd utilised for the benedt oi' Canada Mllfii ¢0
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