"(cedueued from Dlle

. (Ieushtor). This‘ do

ajdcnstrotlop of y;

what it ls? NM!- LEA: Thlt may be rrielidb interpretation. that is

I),

You fie very ,_ to shew the teachers that‘ fro doing something? - . Mit- LEA: Sure: and we in- e do something. ~ ' MCIIILLAN: Willi’. do lrhl 1 want? HR. LEA: An increase in I ' KOMILLAN: Do you want. to trier; mm" N-IER. LEA: Well, it must be iillot before they can got it. : Thin why don't ut ‘i. in the ballet? N. mm: flow do you know ?

M : That lo what we to kpw, what "the ballot is for. - . Ml. LEA: I have been en- : i tell you. M N: You have been o tell us that this bal- .- y bofyirsanythlng. N. lisglépm: 0f importance on attou. 1,.» .

< M : I thought you it might be of importance on .‘ : We will limit um actions regarding Education.

I . STEWART; W11! don't illi- iiiglt ill. anyway?

. gm )

MQMEMN: The only ques- you ygsutfte when w tho poo- wivsthsr they are prepared to ’ e tlgghers more than they are ;~ at payout. by direct taxation. dcnftgeuput that in ule bai-

4 e

. "flit; Why are you l mo a question and telling mo ‘ i; some time?

___ __ "zijanflayingthht . fllilvbiiliffdllly vital question elblnittodl to the people.

That is your oping;

f1”.

And it’ is us -- UN. lot of people. 1t is as

"that is going be help the era, d it is the recommenda- of this ‘Commission? -, LEM‘ We

meanders: m. ens we'll- Iii ifgelag to come on of

i parses u.» obiect of m. isItO ask the people if they

' - -| - is increase the tsechere’ ' ithim- _ , ,1 l IIA: Yes. that,’ is one.

A‘ “ h

‘baltstl 'Y0lt.l!lVI admitted new ‘one-question ie-to be.‘ The point "much are you sting to ask

~ otthis Provioce in pay? inmnsouade you propose tc

f Th‘?! is the gist-of tho whelo Ire act ebioeiillio ll .1; salaries to the teachers; oro the» soeoloseilo to vols miloss you prepare thoai

‘-~ wisetien? They will come to

- ‘ihflwaoil may doom

- ask is-tbot going to y the eoacherr salaries! why - definite? we: not prepare sect was prepared in ism

~ enough. wasn't it?

bests! all the legislation that A hi; provided that

silitfcperotion until

HON.‘ Mn. letting alone. ii _ my hon. friend should ,. ulance. He is now

st the beginning. 1 sdbam um this lIoIo should not be by be- ingaokodtepaasthiilllonthoin- adequate inf which is given on the face of it. t is my opin- ion; and as one member of this Committee I would prefer not to sit hero at all when they pose legisla- tion in that way. Are we to be driv- en blindfolded, like cattle. into pass- lng legislation wihost knowing whai we pge pgggingfvAnd wit!!! a mem- ber oi this C‘ ttoo hazards a statement witl-ffregard to the bill, is he to birtoldi "Haw do you know ihat?"_le that’ the attitudo---

HON. MR. : Well, he was tell- ing me some ina-

HON. STEWART: He was sugesting ething: That isithe at- titude-u- ,‘

110R. Mil. LEA: Not at all. Ho w“ ggy ‘h; knew.

non. ' STEWART: Please don't in pt. ‘Phat is the attitude that is taken; and_ I still per- sist in opinion that the Proper method deal with this question- when be‘ has stated already that it is intended to be dealt with at an" election/thee will take piece s year and a half from now-would ‘be to leave t over until the next session pf the Legislature. That would be very nooh more inlino with l!" recegmondations pi the Commission, for Q would give the till" Ill! 0P- perflinity to oxpla‘ the matter thor- c _y to our people throughout the

_ es. lust as the Commission sufgostod. At present we who are the oi tho , ," do not in the mind of tho

ass

throw _what is

p their own minds, they could takes

government. If they have not made

I. e_ar to consider it. and we would not. be-any worse eff a year henoe, since

, the bill cannot oome into effect, in

any case, before that’ time. If they

‘ do know what they intend to do. the

whole House should knew. ‘that is the attitude I take. I my that this legislation is not definite. It Edm- proper and it is promo-tilte-

lJR- MCMlLLANzI lust want ie tell the promoter of this bill that when I have anything te soy I I-m going to soy it. If he thinks I am lecturing this House, I. want to tell him that that, i8 I privilege which does not. belonl to him eritirely- as need Mi- think us is the only lecturer, in W House. (Applause) I have. already forced two admissions from him l-

.bcutthiaballot.Onewusthokit

ibellbeaballotiareslsdltef-II- alien, and tho ooomd was tint it silallboaballflthxtlioiform ofo eobsdulsrmsenosd iritheiepmv! the Educational Coalition. Now there are two different forms of schedule intheroport. one present- edlyythofidlmillfllhbllobyilho teoehersJ-iasayaitisiustmkelli- mew-mi uis rocommondlideflloitilis Ootnlnissimlicloiswhatthe Oom- misoionsayo:

“An increase in subsidy may pro-

. vide in whole oritn part the nec-

rovesiuo for educational improvements. advancu in salar- orfes. pensions. etc. lad we rec- emmuld ‘itmtif. and when. an increased "subsidy h granted i110. requirements o! education be given first consideration by the Govern- ment. should ‘there be no increase in subsidy, however. the ocst of improved eduosuosi must be borne by the pooflo. Before the submis- sion of any plan of revenue to the people. every possible means should be taken by the loaf-d oi solution to inform ilho people of the emditiono and of the rool mooningloi any sulltlted finan- cial ement. We reooimnend the ll Iii in every school die-i trict- educatio ‘ meetings. at- which officials oi the Department, supervisors. and others in the fish-let could stimulate a deeper

in the whole question. We q-e [mood-that will adequate iuwimsuou sod o iruo realisation of jiio seriousness of the situation the ilnbleilll will be approached will-i lldereus sympathy and Nao- tifoi results."

f i n. Iegieailtiethol

New, m. (ihalrmahri soblait that this Aetwere drown up lite tho

'5 Act of mo, ‘you could ‘mo. that ee-

ueatlonai eainpahp in each district‘ beauso you would-have something to‘

f. Bpttbis ass-molds Aot eeri-

"hwhon you go to

is all right. and 1 shall deal with

"thstonanothereccasienufhelearo

some vn-y valuable oilggostiooa in that report of ion: they will stand repetition arid they are lust u true today ssihey wereattlaattime. I am not “leeturing" the‘ promoter. Iammorelysuggutingthotbe give us, something tangible to work m. we are lust as lrliidh interested in this question oz increulng the teach- ers‘ salaries as the Government is. and we would like to help ‘flhil met- il,‘ along. But live us something te watkonwowillbemeetingtbs farmers and relkesentafllvas oi the country disttots from now until the di-‘m-mfl- will. WII give us the oppor- tunity of trying to tell them that they should do more for Education? (Ap- plausc.) We cannot do it when there is nothing to tell, when we do ml». know what the uoverninenl. has u; "llfld-Allwewldclsiouutbemeu “when day. and that it will have wmi-‘ihiill to do with education.

MR. W. H. DENNIS: I think the members of the Opponitlqn u, g little unreasonable in rang-g u, W, rue-bier. The Government is taking the Yfiilwnsibilitycf summing s referendum. and they will Maw, the hastisement they deserve if they err. The promoter has been frank 1n explainlns that he does not. at i119 Present time, know what is 3°. Ins w be placed on that referendum, I don't BUDDOae uie leader of the QPPWi-hfl i! preps-red to suinnig to m6 Dmmoter oi the bill everything that should so in that ballot. Is it Wonderful that the Gbvenunent should lake this twelve months to "will" 1mm the people what they think should be time’! Bo far as ed. ""9158 the people is concerned, r think all of us could go, ahead m4 "Plain that the ikacllers must re. ceive more money. and if we-sre not fortunate in getting our claims from Ottawa there is no other al- ‘ ve butnlailat money mugt be "W! "W" the tax-payers. 1 ilhink we should go ahead with this bill.

HON. MB. srnwsnT. My hon. frin-id is not very consistent. l-is says "Q. nobody in this HD1159 know; the form of the ballot. and no one h" elven it any consideration. He $511598“! m6 OPPOI-ition to suggest “WNW and then he said "We should l0 0h with the Mil." Is there ll! reason why it should not stand over for a‘ year, until we can discuss it iniellirvntlyr why ohoold we rush it through new? It, is not auggggfgd (that this ballot will be required be. fore the rick-t election, in 1931; so Why rosn it through? My hon. friend says that the Government is prg. ill-Nd to take the impossibility and that we mould not say anything. we too have a responsibility as members or this House, and we are pgepargfl to take our responsibility; but we want to take it intelligently. 1 lup- Pooo the member from Omesry would III-M to fake his responsibility in- teiligeutly. I don't suppose he would want to moot the pebple of his dis- trict without the lmowledge that he confesses be lacks at the-present time.

Ixeoeiling Recommendations

fellow the reoonrimendatlms oi the Ooirm-ii-mlon. I may tell him be is go- ing beyond these sfiditlfllftiliflll-lflfil because he says that one of the things that will probably be submitted in tho referendum is whether the 1M- plo will approve oi the higher sai- aries given in the schedule. The Coul- misaien does not recommend that; the only question the Commission roeonmelida to a referendum is whether the people will submit to taxation. The root is a matter for the Government. Does my hon friend suggest that the Government will take no responlbliity at- ailr

- HON. MR. LIA: Isn't that a dem- ocratic Government?

HON. MB. BfllWART: your idee oi demoiracy?

HON. MIR. LEA: Are you popes- lng that. we shouldn't. wish u) con-y out. the wishes of the people?

HON. MR. BIIWARI’ I am not spying anything the kind. You need not try to (nibble my hen. friend. (AppiaIe-l

HON. MR. LEA: What is tho meaning of your roam-k. illen!

HON. MR. BTIWAM‘: I believe in democracy according to ‘DIME-ll Government as we have it is ‘every

part of the Isttioh Ilifis. And that fern of Government dose not "golds for gevsrnaloat by referent‘ dam. (Appleseed That I what I am taiklnt stool. see my lea- MIN koowslaiaaliutasraaeaafrlead

Is that

"eideiaoseaeyse hamlet’! II

‘Illomomoiersaylbewanisto.

‘applause from the

"rrlliwirrlislznoirraroww GUARDIAN

next session oi um House. ‘Piles-o is not any sensible leased why it should be passed at this union. in this hurried way, without any (me on either side of tile blouse having any knowledge oi what is going on. ‘m. ARQINAULT: I was amused at my hon. friend from OT-eory when he Bald that the teachers should re- ceive more money. Last year he was very particular to ask his electors what ideas they had on this matter: and he was right. He gave notice in the press. l-ie said the teach e were looking for increased salaries, which, if granted, would mean $100,000. "Are you willing to give them that in- crease?" he asked-addlrlg “You farmers are now paying l74,000. tome on your land." (laughter) That is the important question; to tell the people they are now paying so much iri taxes, and that so much more is wanted from them. leaving it for them in decide v/hetiler they will pay lt or not. 'I‘flat is what my hon. friend from O'I.eary asked m5 district last year; and I would not think that he would now want to ask any ques- tion that is not definite.

Full Information Demanded

MR. W. C. S. MOLURE Wlierl some information was asked with re- spect te this clause in ‘the bill, the promoter gave fills answer that. we receive very often in this House: "I don't “know.” Now,‘ Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to accept that ans- wer. because after some discussion on this clause we have received some lnformationpand I believe the pro- moter does knew and should give this House the information with re. gard to It. f-ie has already admitted that this referendum will be. with regard to increased taxation for ed- ucational purposes. Tltsit is a oer- taln amount oi information, and it is different from the first answer we received. I think the promoter should take all the members oi the House into his confidence and igil us what he really knows with re. giird to the questions that will be liliwed on this ballot. tve will not commit him to every detail. but let him be frank. He told us he knew nothing of it; now he has ven us a little information, but we consider that we’ are entitled to a little more.

HON. MR. LEA: I didn't say I knew libilhlilg OMt. I said I difPfll, know What we might need to put on it,

mm. MOLURE l dorft think that was your answer.

HON. MR. STEWART‘ There has

been sllolvil a very great leticeilcc on ille part of my 1101i. friend the pm. illotcr. He has not been candid and straightforward in this matter. which is renewable: for if he had fold this House what he had in mind it night have saved a considerable amount of time. ' HON. MR. LEA: Does my hon. friend think I am hiding something that We have agreed on as a Govem- mrnt? '

HON. Mn. STEWART: Very well.‘ I shall take my hon. friend's word for_ that. -

HON. MR. LEA: That is ‘a fact. \_vc only received this report when‘ the House was practically in session.

HON. hm. STEWART: ‘rhon I will take his word for it that he does not know, and the Government does not know. hut why not leave this meas- ure until they have had an upper. tunity of discussing it and coming to a decision? is there any valid rea- son why it should not stand until the neat session, when the Govern- ment will bs prepared to come before this Legislature with a considered opinion?

HON. MR. LEA: Well. I will say to my hon. friend that we are en- deavoring as quickly as we can to bring into force all the _recomrnycnd.a- tions of the Commission; and one oi them was in regard to the taking of this ballot. How does he know that the Government might not sp- pcel to the people in the coming year? And for the sake of giving the teachers their increase as quickly as possible, would it not be better to have this legislation en the statutes? . HON. MR. STEWART: Now my hon. friend is taking the some reti- cent attitude that lle adopted at first. Does he mean to say that that has been contemplated-an election ibis year?

HON. am. LEA: No, no! (bough- ter). But how does he know that it might not be necessary? "

HON. MB. STEWART: Why bring out that silly excuser (A ' use).

HON. MR. LEA: 1 am only saying that that is one valid reason. we are endeovcring to assist the teach-

as quickly as we can; and eup- that that became necessary? New you aio giving the Government

i " uie power lo submit mu by senor.

Isthebhposltionnowgeingtebloek er endeavor to block the opportunity of the teachers getting their salaries increased one year earlier? (laud Page). _

80ft. us. lTIwAltT:

olsusssas rlaioeiulsd.

Mylbfl-

as

‘not Justified and that is unworthy

of him. I-It lays: ‘If this thing should happen.’ I asked him if they had contemplated it. and he said No. What possibility or setof circum- stances could arise between now and the neat session of the Legislature that he does not have present hwy." ledge of? I cannot conceive of any. But take that possibility as balanc- ed assinst the importance of having "I" W! Pili- i-llrfllldh in proper feral. so that it can be disengage] mum. Ifllily. and what is the argument worth? (Applause). My hon. friend has made a statement that savers of political propaganda when he says that we are trying to block what is in interests .oi the Jeachers. We l" lust as fully identified with the teachers, as citizens, as he is. If he can show me that the teachers "0 80in! i0 let any earlier assist- once by puttifll this bill through, I will not discuss it further.

HON. MR. LEA: Well, 1 have shown you where it might.

HON. MR. STEWART: You haven't shown me anything oi the kind. (Applause). You have shown no reason why it should not stand ovcr for another session. is it putting this bill through, or is it the refer. endnm, that is gelng to benefit the teachers? _

HON. MR. LEA: That is what we are in committee for, to get our. selves the power to take the refer. endum.

HON. ivfR. STEWART: If my hon. friend could say h; was going u, take this referendum before mother year and a ha1f-_

HON. MR. LEA: It is possible.

KON- im- SEWABT: It is not Possible that you are going to take it sport from the general election.

HON. MR. LEA: No, but the gen- eral election is possible.

HON. MR. STEWART: It is a very remote possibility.

HON. MR. LEA: It might not be so. remote.

HON. MR. STEWART: The only thing that. ‘would drive him to the country ls s. (strike on the part of the teachers; and I think we all have the interests of education too mucll at heart to hope for that, notwith- standing what has been said on tile floor of this House. (Applause).

Premier Enters Debate.

PREMIER. ssunnuns; l am soil-i

‘I'll my lloll. friends have been so ‘ready to suggest that this is just a fateful-e. as if we didn't. intend to do- what was right by the teachers. "flley have got it illto their heads that there is seine ulterior object. ‘and they any. why can't we take tllem into our confidence. frhe fact of t-lle matter, so far as the Gov- crnmcnt is concerned, is tllatwc are 80mg to give them every reasonable conside atiuu. We have not arrived at wfpt questions will be submitted, but it takes time to consider um. .We will have ample time. This ref- erendum is a very reasonableone. Because you want us to follow tile Statute of 191B is no reason why we should do so. Ii we are to simply continue following precedent, we would get nowhere in anything. we want to advance now and again; and as I see it, so far as thislegls. lotion is concerned it is as good an Act as I have ever seen in regard to taking a‘ referendum and getting an expression of opinion. because, as I said, the very questions that will be submitted to the people will be questions that will be receiving very much consideration before belug silh- mittcd. Even if we. lied questions he" i0 Submit. We know perfectly ‘"11 "h" hliliwned some questions before: they would be discussed ad infinitllm. HON. MR. STEWART: shouldn't they be? PRIMER. SAUNDERS: What I am saying is this, that the Govern. ment. takes the responsibility; we feel that we are quite capable of dis- cussinf this matter with the Board of Education and arriving at a de- cision that will be satisfactory to all concerned. Please don't think that only the teachers will be considered The teachers’ salaries are important. but there are other considerations. ‘rllfpeople themselves surely have a right to knew, for instance. whether that tax new existing on reel estate and personal property should be done awsy with. Personally I have no hee- itatlon in saying that I am opposed to that; and I don't believe the peo- plo would be satisfied. I believe there should be an education tax, but I further believe that the tax that new eskts on real estate is a very reasonable one. so for as this bill is concerned. there is no select that I can soo to be gained by delay. If you can point to anything that is but honest-

Why

eoet that it is lust a "selture." You vo that in mind. It is no gesture. liueg a definite; we not to‘ wlissursirendrlgliisndulore no ulterior object, and we are go- eo eedsedor the questions in one

odotenoattllai-b‘

aotiwowillthsaknso /

we have an Act whereby we can frame our questions to submit to the people and let them decide.

DR. MCMILLAN: We are getting

Unfuunded Charge.

information gradually. We know new that the Government have not con- sidered the Commissiors report; they haven't had time to consider it, and they are not prepared to give a definite opinion, or formulate any proper plan. I think you all admit. their-that you have not had time. lf ihafhe so. what is the idea of pressing this bill? You want to pass an Act, and you yourselves ad- mit that you do not _know what the result is going to be. We are not ob- jecting to the machinery of the ref- erendum. The promoter made a very curious statement when he said that the attitude of the Opposition is that we would like to delay the teachers‘ increase in salaries for a yoalr. The Minister of Agriculture knows bet- ter than that; he knows he cannot bluff anyone by a statement of that kind. Any discussion that we are having on this bill will not delay the teachers in getting ihelr salaries by one fraction oi a second.